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#24182 - 09/25/06 07:42 PM
Re: The Liberal Media is at it Again!
[Re: oenophore]
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Mike Rawdon
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So the Bush/neo-con war machine is basically 0 for 2.
Maybe 0 for 3 if you count the War on Terror not going well (ref. latest report that we are actually less safe now).
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#24183 - 09/26/06 11:57 AM
Re: The Liberal Media is at it Again!
[Re: Mike Rawdon]
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mworking
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Been wanting to comment but wasn't sure what to write before. Now I thinking about it I find this pretty ironic since that fact that we aren't winning the war in Iraq is only news here in the US, but not anywhere else!
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#24184 - 09/28/06 09:24 AM
Re: The Liberal Media is at it Again!
[Re: Mike Rawdon]
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Fraser
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Quote:
So the Bush/neo-con war machine is basically 0 for 2.
Maybe 0 for 3 if you count the War on Terror not going well (ref. latest report that we are actually less safe now).
You liberals shouldn't be gloating since that is our security that we are talking about. I wouldn't say that anyone has lost Afghanistan other than the Afghani people themselves.
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#24186 - 09/28/06 01:55 PM
Re: The Liberal Media is at it Again!
[Re: Fraser]
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mworking
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I don't think we are gloating Fraser. It's just hard to sound and feel totally outraged for years at a time, even when that feeling is fully warranted.
What’s more is that is hard to imagine, and even harder to admit that ignoring the deaths of a few thousand Americans would have been a better option than the response that our government now owes billions of dollars for.
Understand that I am not suggesting that we should have completely ignored those deaths, or terrorists. But deception led and still leads many to conclude that the current war was and is a response to terrorism.
Whether or not you want to argue that the war is linked to terrorism really makes no difference. It is the war that has placed us at more risk rather than less. This is still sad for people like me. I would rather have been wrong. I am sad for us and I am sad for Iraq. I am sad that the American public can be so easily hoodwinked, and I am outraged by those who have been doing it.
Edited by mworking (09/28/06 02:16 PM)
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#24187 - 09/28/06 03:49 PM
Re: The Liberal Media is at it Again!
[Re: Fraser]
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Daniel
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I wouldn't say that anyone has lost Afghanistan other than the Afghani people themselves.
Hey, I'm all for not blaming people just because things happened to go wrong. Sometimes the right decisions lead to bad outcomes anyway, and sometimes people screw up and things turn out fine. Sometimes the economy is up, sometimes it's down, and it's not necessarily anyone's fault.
But I don't think that's the case in Afghanistan. As in Iraq, the most important post-war item was to provide security. We didn't do it. We didn't supply the troops necessary to do it. Instead, we diverted our resources to Iraq, where we repeated the mistake of not providing post-war security. It seems plausible to me that if we hadn't gone into Iraq, or if we had done Iraq correctly, then maybe today we'd have the troops to help root out the resurgent Taliban in southern Afghanistan.
So yes, we can say that if only the Afghanis had played nice with each other then their country wouldn't be in trouble. But it was easily foreseeable that that scenario probably wouldn't be the case (just as it was foreseeable in Iraq). For this administration to have no real plan for a less-than-optimal outcome was irresponsibility of the highest order, and as a result we're left with an outcome that's looking increasingly grim. Maybe the Afghans could have done better, but so could have this administration, and so I think it's entirely fair for them to shoulder a good portion of the responsibility for the way things have turned out.
This isn't about gloating, or my team versus their team. It's about holding government accountable regardless of who is in power. If we let these guys off the hook when they screw up, then they have little incentive to change the way they do things and they'll be more likely to screw it up the next time too.
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#24188 - 09/28/06 07:16 PM
Re: The Liberal Media is at it Again!
[Re: Daniel]
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Mike Rawdon
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I couldn't have summarized the Afganistan mess any better.
As far as Iraq goes, I'll restate my earlier prediction that Saddam will regain power. Maybe not over the whole country (assuming it stays in one piece. Full-on civil war could split it up.) but over a good chunk of it. He seems to be getting closer to liberty each day, as one trial aspect after another goes tits up.
And as 2006 winds down, I'll be man enough to admit that my prediction of US forces in either Syria or Iran MIGHT have been off the mark.
Except that I heard US special ops forces are already in Iran. 
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#24189 - 09/29/06 07:50 AM
Re: The Liberal Media is at it Again!
[Re: Mike Rawdon]
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alicex4
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"And as 2006 winds down, I'll be man enough to admit that my prediction of US forces in either Syria or Iran MIGHT have been off the mark."
I am still holding to my prediction, December-Iran, something will go down.
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