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#34065 - 10/29/07 10:35 PM
Seeking advice from an experienced winter camper
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Loralee Ryan
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Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Bard College, NY
(192.246.232.115)
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I'm planning on taking a solo seven day camping trip near the end of December. (I was planning on going in the catskills, but that is negotiable). I wanted to talk to someone who had perhaps camped over there before and could offer some advice, or else just anyone who has done any kind of winter camping.
I'm a broke college student so I'm looking to borrow rather than buy gear - but if someone might be able to tell me where I could rent these items cheaply, that would be wonderful
1) A sleeping bag (perferabley zero degree)
2) A small portable stove
3) A large backpack
Otherwise I'm just looking for tips, tricks, and most effective ways not to die in these harsher environments!
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#34067 - 10/29/07 11:26 PM
Re: Seeking advice from an experienced winter camp
[Re: Loralee Ryan]
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Mike Rawdon
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Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 3451
Loc: Poughkeepsie
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When I was in college, we got all that good stuff from the Outing Club. Does Bard have one?
I don't know of any place to rent gear like that in the Hudson Valley. EMS in Lake Placid and The Mountaineer in Keene Valley USED TO rent gear; it might be worth calling them to ask.
Pardon me for asking, but do you have the appropriate personal eqt. for a venture like this? Footwear capable of several days of snow travel? Non-cotton clothing?
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#34068 - 10/30/07 07:45 AM
Re: Seeking advice from an experienced winter camp
[Re: Mike Rawdon]
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Loralee Ryan
stranger
Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Bard College, NY
(192.246.232.115)
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Please, please, ask away. I'm not dropping myself in the wilderness for a week unprepared, and asking helps me to go over everything I need.
I ordered a pair of snowboots that seem to be hiking capable. I won't know until they come and try them out if they'll work for me, but if not I do know a place where I can rent shoes cheaply.
I have wool undergarments, lots of wool socks, lots of wool sweaters. I have a down winter coat. I only have one really good pair of snow pants - my other pants are jeans or sweatpants, so I need to know what kind of material in that area to get. I know something sort of waterproof, but after that I don't know what is necessary.
Bard has a very inactive outdoors club. I doubt I can get supplies from them.
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#34070 - 10/30/07 09:26 AM
Re: Seeking advice from an experienced winter camp
[Re: Loralee Ryan]
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Kent
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Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 447
Loc: The Bayards
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Hi Loralee,
You're going to have a lot of fun with this I think.
Your snow boots. Wear them and hike with them a lot before you head off into the woods for a week in January. The critical issue is how to keep the inside dry. Your feet are going to perspire a lot. Some of it is sensible perspiration and some of it is insensible perspiration. Either way the inside of your boots are going to get wet and then they are going to get cold. This is bad.
If you buy a boot with a removable liner you can pull the liner out and stick it in your sleeping bag at night to dry. If you don't have a removabale liner, you should wear some kind of vapor barrior sock. This will allow you to keep your boot dry. The VB socks you can take off at night, turn inside out, and put on your chest when you sleep. Your body heat will dry them to a degree. Be sure to field test your VB socks. Some VB socks I have used leaked like sieves on their first day. My favorite VB socks are Sealskinz. They have a waterproof breathable membrane that is super dry and still comfortable. Most VB socks are clammy plastic things. If you have happy feet, for the most part you will be a happy camper.
Water. In the Catskills in winter you are going to be using streams for water. Be sure to purify it. Filters are generally expensive and heavy and if it's cold enough they freeze up. Polar Pure is a water purification product that uses iodine. "It should not be used by persons with allergy to iodine, persons with active thyroid disease, or pregnant women." Polar Pure is cheap and light and effective. After the iodine has had a little time to do it's thing, adding a small amount of sugar makes the iodine taste go away. Sugar also makes the iodine ineffective though if you add it too soon.
Clothes. It's all about layering. Being able to layer up and layer down according to the weather and your level of acitivity. Wool is good but it's bulky and heavy. Wicking synthetics are great. Cotton in winter is referred to as "death cloth" and needles to say, it's best avoided. Bring cotton to sleep in if you want but that's about it. A hat of course is a must. Bring a backup hat. Be sure you bring a hat you can wear when sleeping. A wind and waterproof outer shell is important. You don't need a super expensive and rugged $400 shell jacket with macthing $300 pants. Your "snow pants" don't sound too bad. You can get a light and simple waterproof/breathable shell pullover for about $100 if you look around on the net. These pack very small too.
Gloves/mittens. Gloves with some decent dexterity are what you will wear most of the time. For backup though you need mittens, not gloves, that are capable of keeping your hands warm in extremely cold weather. Dachstein wool mittens with a goretex mitten shell are the way to go. These are bought seperately. This will involve some expense but they may save your fingers. And if your fingers don't work it's hard to pitch a tent, start the stove, lace up your boots, etc..
Winter camping is gear intensive. The trick is to bring what you need and avoid bringing what you don't need. If you are completely green at this you might want to break it down into functionalities that you can organize and practice before heading out for a week. If you are ill prepared and the weather is 30ish, and you can stay dry, it won't be too bad. If you get really wet, and it's in the 30s or 40s, you could be in deep ka ka. If you are ill prepared and it's 20 below, you could be in deep ka ka. By deep ka ka I mean you might not come home even though the car is just a few miles away.
I'm not trying to scare you. It's just that it's important that you have a healthy respect for what you are undertaking. Be sure you read about hypothermia, how to avoid it, and what to do at the first sign you are experiencing it.
Much of the above does not fit into the "broke college student" category, but it's necessary anyway. I would suggest making a Christmas request list for your family now. I would guess that's the way many of us get lots of our gear.
I have more gear than I know what to do with but most of it won't fit you I would guess. You are more than welcome to borrow one of my stoves however. In more extreme environs where the only way you get water is by melting ice and consolidated snow, you need to carry two stoves but I wouldn't bother with a 2nd stove in the Catskills. What are you doing about a tent?
Have fun.
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#34076 - 10/30/07 07:41 PM
Re: Seeking advice from an experienced winter camp
[Re: Kent]
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fallenglass
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Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 261
Loc: cornwall
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before doing your long outing, you might consider doing a 'shake down' trip for only one night or two not too far from your car, just to get your system down pat.
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#34090 - 10/31/07 02:04 PM
Re: Seeking advice from an experienced winter camp
[Re: fallenglass]
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AOR
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Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 162
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Loralee...fallenglass' post about doing one or two "short trial runs" before doing anything serious is excellent and sound advice.
Also, the aforementioned clothing advice is good too.
However, and besides all the gear, clothing, equipment, location, etc. necessities, there is one other thing you'll need...and that is confidence. And, this usually only comes from some form of experience.
This, so you can make sound decisions should you get "into trouble" that are not based on fear and uncertainty but on the acquired experience and the confidence you've gained through that personal experience.
I certainly hope this helps. Enjoy...!!!
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#34093 - 10/31/07 05:10 PM
Re: Seeking advice from an experienced winter camp
[Re: AOR]
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Loralee Ryan
stranger
Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Bard College, NY
(72.22.177.35)
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Thank you guys so much - all of this is really helping.
I own an excellent pair of gloves and an excellent pair of mittens.
My snow boots haven't come in yet, so I don't know if I can remove the liner yet - but I will certainly check as soon as I get them. I have some very thick wool socks and some very thin wool socks, I don't know which will work with the snow boots. I'm assuming that the boots are warm enough that I'll only need the thin socks (they are like ski socks) - and the wool socks will work if the inside of my boots gets wet, right?
Most of my wintery clothes are wool, and very heavy. I know that I'm going to have to carry a backpack stock full of nuts and stuff for a week so I'll be packing as light as I can (I have backpacked before - but that was in Thailand, so a very different experience). I guess I won't know how heavy it is until I pack it though.
My coat winter coat is down, which I know will be rendered useless once it gets wet. I know you said to look for a waterproof shell for around $100 ... but would one of those five dollar ponchos work just as well? I know they won't do anything for warmth, but I'll be warm as long as I'm dry, right?
The catskills have lean-tos all over the place. I was not planning on bringing a tent. I was considering bringing along a tarp just in case I end up somewhere without a lean-to, but careful planning of trails should ensure that that won't happen.
Here are my main concerns: I don't have a car, so a quick escape is dependent on my ability to find a ride. And I know that there is minimal if no cellphone service in the Catskills. (as with most mountains). I know the catskills have many check-in points, so the rangers will be aware that I'm around, but if something goes wrong, I don't know how they would handle that. How long they'd wait before someone started to look for me, etc...
I'm going for the week of christmas, not january. I don't have a relationship with my family, so asking for supplies for Christmas won't help. They don't actually know that I'm doing this.
I'd imagine I'd bring three/four pairs of socks for the week. How many changes of pants/sweaters and things should I bring?
And for food, I thought it would be things like nuts, dried fruit, raisins, Ramen, (I think if I can get one hot meal a day, I'll be golden - even though Ramen has no nutrition), hot oatmeal, and perhaps gatorade powder for electrolytes. But again, I don't want to over pack because I'd then have to drag it around, but it would be far worse to underpack.
I'm imagining that the bulk of the stuff I'm dragging around will be food.
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#34096 - 10/31/07 08:47 PM
Re: Seeking advice from an experienced winter camp
[Re: Loralee Ryan]
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pedestrian
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Registered: 08/04/02
Posts: 1826
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
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In December, in the Northeast, you are just as likely to experience heavy rain as snow. You're also likely to get cold. A cheap emergency poncho definitely won't keep your legs dry in an extended downpour, and possibly won't keep your arms and sides dry either. One of the most miserable ten mile hikes of my life was done in the summer wearing a poncho... never again.
There are two types of winter boots worth considering for such an extended trip: felt lined pac boots; these have rubber bottoms with leather uppers and a removable liner that you can keep try. Alternatively, consider a double plastic mountaineering boot but that may be overkill for your "camping" trip.
Edited by pedestrian (10/31/07 08:55 PM)
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#34098 - 10/31/07 10:33 PM
Re: Seeking advice from an experienced winter camp
[Re: pedestrian]
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mworking
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Registered: 05/26/04
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Winters in southern northeast can be very unpredictable. You might need wet weather gear, cold weather gear, and perhaps even skis or snowshoes! It will be extremely advantageous to be able to layer just about all your clothing
You need a warm synthetic bag and insulation to put under it, a stove, fuel and the pack itself.
Not all your load will be food. Especially at the end of your trip.
I'll throw some numbers out off the top of my head – anyone feel free to correct or improve them.
Pack 4
Bag 4
Insulating pad 1
Stove & cooking gear 2
Fuel ? ½ gallon? 4
Clothes not worn 5
There is 20lbs with no food
Thing you might want - light, camera…
I want to stress I bet everyone here wants to encourage you. Just plan carefully.
I am sure you can rent the pack bag and pad – but you might borrow this stuff too. You might borrow some ski clothing that would be lighter and dry faster than wool.
In winter you might carry different foods. You have to worry about freezing but not normal spoilage.
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#34099 - 10/31/07 10:34 PM
Re: Seeking advice from an experienced winter camp
[Re: pedestrian]
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Loralee Ryan
stranger
Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Bard College, NY
(72.22.177.35)
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Well, it is a hiking and camping trip. I plan to hike and sleep in a different lean to every night. (I wish I could get some maps in a pdf format so I could show you guys the trail I'm planning!)
http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/8573,75387_Sorel-Snow-Eagle-Snow-Boots-Waterproof-For-Women.html
Those are the boots I'm getting. They'll be mainly used for the morning trek to class, but I'm hoping those will work for my camping trip. Because if they don't, then I'm in trouble.
If my pants are waterproof and most of my undergarments are wool, will I be all right with a poncho? Its mainly to keep the rain sort of off the down coat.
I know that as soon as you get wet you get cold. But if I can prevent it with a poncho or one of those black plastic garbage bags, I'd be more open to that then the added expense.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Edited to add:
A pad! I forgot about a pad to sleep on. I don't mind sleeping on hard surfaces, but I do know that it is much harder for cold to creep through if there is a barrier between the sleeping bag and floor.
I understand that you are all encouraging - and I really am very very grateful that you all are taking this time to help me out. This is dangerous no matter how carefully I plan it, but it is life threatening with improper planning.
I've never spent a winter up here - Are white christmases sporadic or a given? Can anyone "summerize" what kind of weather I should expect? I'm surprised that you get heavy rain in December. I really hope that it isn't true for this year.
Edited by Loralee Ryan (10/31/07 10:40 PM)
Edit Reason: Responding to a post I hadn't seen yet :)
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