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#34832 - 12/11/07 11:37 PM
Re: Building a Fire in the Snow
[Re: Mike Rawdon]
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mworking
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Good reading. Thanks Mike.
While it might not be likely to encounter the kind of cold described in this story, I once took a mitten off at the top of Mt Washington on a rare and beautiful warm (0F) winter day with only 40mi an hour wind. My hand was numb half way through the pee, and it took a good ten minutes to get rid of the tingling afterward to just feel normal but still cold inside the mitten. My hands were not at all cold beforehand.
Just as importantly in terms of survival was the descriptions of the man’s body after he had stopped moving. I have been running trails with precious few clothes on recently. (I’m not an exhibitionist – there is rarely anyone around.) I am acutely quite aware of how quickly I might freeze if something were to happen to me so that I could not run.
Edited by mworking (12/11/07 11:37 PM)
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#34839 - 12/12/07 09:37 AM
Re: Building a Fire in the Snow
[Re: mworking]
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Loralee Ryan
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Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Bard College, NY
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I've read To Build a Fire - good story - (I wish I could bring my dog along!), and one of the more annoying things I noticed on the trip was how quickly I lost functionality of my fingers. When I took my gloves off to tie my shoes or whatnot, I constantly had to stop and stick my hands in my armpits to warm them up.
Tough lesson, but its good to know that the warming process is slow unless you have some kind of a heat source. I learned that a mere barrier between the cold air and my cold body doesn't really do much...
I was planning on bringing dryer lint along, as a starter - but if I wanted to keep the fire going for a long period of time (at least an hour or two) , how much wood would that require? I'm guessing more than I can carry just in one trip.
I guess one of the problems is that I'm going to be racing daylight all the time.
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#34841 - 12/12/07 11:46 AM
Re: Building a Fire in the Snow
[Re: Loralee Ryan]
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AOR
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Registered: 08/27/04
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A good rule of thumb is that when you think you have enough...gather five times as much.
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#34856 - 12/12/07 08:23 PM
Re: Building a Fire in the Snow
[Re: AOR]
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Kent
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Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 447
Loc: The Bayards
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Loralee, wood is pretty much a bunch of tightly packed tubes and the tubes in green wood are generally filled with a great deal of moisture. Making dry wood out of green wood is therfore a matter of drying the wood from the inside out, to get the water out of the tubes, rather than just drying off the outside. It takes a lot of energy to do this and the way wood usually becomes seasoned or dry is by adding a little energy or heat over an extended period of time, like a few seasons or even a year.
Empicard pointed out that with enough white fuel you can burn pretty much anything, but even with a lot of white fuel, a fire built of green wood will much more closely resemble a steaming clam bake than a campfire.
So Mike has the right idea here Loralee. Don't count on a campfire to stay warm. The heat generated by your body inside a decent sleeping bag and tent will be far more warming than any fire you will be able to build in the Catskills in winter, unless you have access to a large amount of previously dried and covered firewood. You won't find that around here in winter unless you are camping near someone's backyard and you raid their wood pile.
It looks like we'll be in real winter during your excursion. We're about to get dumped with snow and overnight lows in the Catskills may be in the single digits next week.
Camp smart.
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#34857 - 12/12/07 10:07 PM
Re: Building a Fire in the Snow
[Re: Kent]
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Loralee Ryan
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Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Bard College, NY
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I've been checking the weather, and my anxiety about this trip seems to increase dramatically with each passing day.
I would really love to bring my dog along. I have a big slobbery mutt who would follow me to hell - but I don't know if that could work. Not only would I have extra supplies to carry, his hips aren't fabulous, and, well, its December in the Catskills.
How do dogs fare in weather like this? He's likely to get wet, and its not like I can pull him into my sleeping bag with me. I know there are wild dogs in the mountains, but I'm uneasy about subjecting him to extreme conditions.
(and I don't want the idea of killing him to warm my hands to EVER cross my mind!)
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#34858 - 12/12/07 10:21 PM
Re: Building a Fire in the Snow
[Re: Loralee Ryan]
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pedestrian
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Registered: 08/04/02
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Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
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I had extra changes, but it seemed like it would be difficult to keep my outer layer dry at all. And that is when it is not raining.
good on ya for getting out there. Anyway, perhaps you should pick up a copy of Marc Twight's book Extreme Alpinism for its excellent commentary on layering systems. plan on (a) layering lightly so that you don't sweat out, (b) having a puffball jacket that is sized so that you can throw it on OVER your shell - this will dry everything inside the jacket (c) wear your wet clothing inside your sleeping bag at night.
However, the one piece of advice I would not follow from that book (at this point.. until you get more experienced) is his advice on sleeping bag temperature ratings. Have a SYNTHETIC bag that is rated for no higher than the minimum temperatures you expect to encounter. Won't need a fire if you've got a dry sleeping bag that's warm enough.
Now, making a fire takes some doing, it's more art than science, you'll need to have some newspaper or Campmor catalogs available, and some of the other firestarters people have suggested will also help, make sure to pick up lots of small tiny dry sticks and various sizes working up from that... prop them up with space for them to breathe... and practice.
The driest wood you are likely to find in the winter will be dead, typically roughly half-inch-thick, dried lower branches of living trees. These can be distinguished by their lack of bark and they should break off easily. "Squaw wood." It's a little too thick for kindling unless you're carrying very good firestarters, but is often naturally dried because it's (a) off the ground, still attached to the tree and (b) dead.
Edited by pedestrian (12/12/07 10:28 PM)
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#34860 - 12/13/07 06:57 AM
Re: Building a Fire in the Snow
[Re: Loralee Ryan]
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AOR
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Registered: 08/27/04
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As for your dog...if his hips aren't great, then you'd be doing him a great disservice bringing him along. As much as I'm sure he loves you and the outdoors, the up and down hiking will cause him much discomfort. And, could ultimately shorten his life.
My dog is going through the same thing now, and I know how much it bothers him just going up and down the stairs.
Also, as it seems this is your first winter outing, you'll have enough to consider without worrying about your dog. If something happens to him on the trail, well...you get the picture.
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#34863 - 12/13/07 04:24 PM
Re: Building a Fire in the Snow
[Re: Loralee Ryan]
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MarcC
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Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 2675
Loc: Sandy, UT
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I've been checking the weather, and my anxiety about this trip seems to increase dramatically with each passing day.
Please read these for starters:
http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/winter/wintcamp.shtml
http://www.backpacking.net/wintertips.html
...then, if you haven't already, maybe pick up that AMC book on winter camping someone mentioned.
Answering/reiterating some questions in this and your other thread:
If you're thinking of a nightly fire for warmth and drying stuff and useful for anything except in a dire, life threatening emergency, you're approaching this entirely wrong!
Don't take your dog. Your hands will be full enough as it is.
Yes, you will need a tent - a tarp won't work for you and your current level of experience. (Try it on a stormy winter night at home.)
A closed cell sleeping pad (not an air mattress) is essential to stop conductive heat loss. Without a pad you would still be cold on a 20F night in a -40F rated bag.
You need a breathable, waterproof shell and pants. A poncho is asking for trouble.
Don't plan on hiking in a down jacket.
Food will be a small fraction of the total weight you'll be carrying.
Depending on how cold it is and how strenuous your trip is, you'll need to figure out how to eat between 3500 and 6000 calories per day. It's actually surprisingly difficult to eat that many cals. On my winter trips in the Daks and White Mtns. we'd put a stick of butter / 4 people in our morning pot of oatmeal and another in our evening one-pot meal.
A headlamp is essential. So is learning how to use a pee bottle inside your sleeping bag without soaking said bag.(It's difficult enough for guys!) 
Know how to recognize hypothermia in yourself before it progresses to the stage where you can no longer tell if you're hypothermic (this is nearly impossible even for experienced winter climbers).
Take a small mirror so you can check your nose and face for signs of frostbite since you won't have others who can do this for you. Do you have a facemask? Goggles? Some way to keep your mittens from being blown away or falling into a stream?
Are you sure you want to do this solo? There's an awful lot to do each evening and each morning on a winter backpack for a party of 4 - if you're alone, you get to do it all.
_________________________
- Marc
Proud Member of the Reality-Based Community
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#34864 - 12/13/07 06:59 PM
Re: Building a Fire in the Snow
[Re: MarcC]
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chip
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Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 1055
Loc: Delaware, U.S.A.
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Winter camping for one night is pretty easy, the problem comes when your gear starts getting progressively wetter, which will happen anytime you start to hike or set things down. Work hard at keeping yourself from sweating as much as possible. I love winter camping and often have gone solo, which is a great way to experience the wild life that would otherwise disappear with more people around. This weather will have driven the bears into hibernation but Lynx and Coyotes will still be out. Neither will hurt you but can make some spine tingling sounds.
Snow shoes are an easy way to get around without working too hard or getting snow in your boots, as well as to stomp out a tent platform. Poles help your balance and can be helpful for staking out your tent. Carry an extra, dry set of long underwear and socks to get into before sleeping and put the other set in your bag to dry over night. Extras of everything.
My humble advice is to plan on doing a couple single overnights, not too far from the trailhead, until you get your systems dialed and don't have to think too hard about how to do everything. The snow will be a plus for many reasons, especially the sound insulation. Pile some up as a wind break on the side of your tent if needed and melt away to hydrate.
Drink enough and eat enough to stay warm if needed, especially during the night. A fire is nice but can be way more trouble than it is worth. A nice piece of flat rock placed on the snow is an easier way to start one than directly on the snow. Enjoy!
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#34940 - 12/21/07 11:25 PM
Re: Building a Fire in the Snow
[Re: chip]
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quanto_the_mad
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Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: brooklyn
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I don't like open fires when camping, but knowing how to build a fire in the snow is a survival technique that could come in handy. Think of the family in Cali; it was lucky they were found alive. They survived without a fire, but a fire would have made the nights a lot more comfortable.
The lower limbs of pine trees are usually dead and dry. If they can be broken off they'll burn nicely. The small twigs will burn really fast, so get a lot of them. While most green wood won't burn, pine pitch is flammable, and once you get the snow off the smaller branches and needles will burn. Dig down under the snow, there's a chance that you'll find a bed of needles that is relatively dry. The pine needles will dry out quickly, burn hot and fast so get a lot of them. They'll might pop and send embers flying, so don't build it too close to your tent. Also, don't build the fire under a tree, the heat will cause the snow on the limbs above to come crashing down and put out the fire.
Birch bark is also good for starting fires, dries out quickly. Don't strip live trees unless it's a survival situation... but there's probably plenty of dead logs you can strip.
Find logs buried under the snow; the outside may be wet, but as long as it's not green, it will dry out and burn. Try to get as much snow off them so that as they're drying they don't put out the fire.
For a firestarter, there's nothing better than a magnesium block. A small pile scraped off will ignite just about anything, and you don't need matches. Of course it's heavy, so many just carry flint and striker, but then you need something that burns. A film canister with a couple of vaseline caked cotton balls is a good firestarter and is light enough. You can also use chapstick and some cotton gauze from your first aid kit.
Always good to know a few survival techniques.
_________________________
"Be ot or bot ne ot, tath is the nestquoi." Thamle, by Malliwi Rapesheake
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